Filmmaker and author Greg Mitchell joins the Chuck Toddcast to discuss Woody Guthrie and the Ghost of Tom Joad Today, his new PBS documentary narrated by Rosanne Cash and featuring music from Bruce Springsteen, which traces the bond Guthrie forged with John Steinbeck during a campaign to ease the suffering of migrants in California — and argues those 1930s conflicts have unmistakable echoes in the present. Mitchell, a Depression-era obsessive who has written extensively about American politics since the 1930s, explains how he began seeing the connections between Guthrie and Steinbeck and why he refused to make a straight biopic: he wanted a film with current ramifications, which is why it closes with Springsteen's "The Ghost of Tom Joad" set against images of immigrants surrounded by federal agents and protesters holding signs quoting Guthrie. He and Chuck get into the story behind "This Land Is Your Land" (which wasn't the song's original title), the mechanics of securing the rights to the music and the story, his conversation with Tom Morello about the Springsteen song, and how seeing the migrant work camps firsthand fundamentally transformed Guthrie as an artist. Mitchell notes that Steinbeck was denounced as a communist for his trouble, that the majority of California's agricultural workforce eventually became Mexican and Filipino, and that Tom Joad was always meant to be a political character — which is exactly why he keeps getting resurrected.
The conversation broadens into a genuinely fun argument about protest music and whether great art requires great despair. Mitchell traces the lineage from Guthrie to Dylan (whom Guthrie mentored) to Springsteen, and notes that Guthrie has had a moment of renewed relevance over the past year as his music finds new audiences at No Kings and anti-ICE protests. He and Chuck walk through the iterations of protest music across the decades — The Clash and Blondie as deeply political acts, Springsteen's own evolution from apolitical rock star to a man now delivering angry speeches from the concert stage, and Jesse Welles finding real modern success in the form. They debate whether a fictional account can land harder than a true story, whether The Grapes of Wrath would even be a bestseller if published today, and what Tom Joad would make of contemporary America — with Mitchell arguing that the collapse of organized labor would genuinely shock both Joad and Guthrie. The episode closes on a pointed political note: Mitchell contends that Trump's corruption so far exceeds anything Nixon did, and that Nixon himself would be considered a lefty by modern standards. The film is streaming now on PBS.org and the PBS app.
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Timeline:
(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)
00:00 Greg Mitchell joins the Chuck ToddCast
01:30 Making an appearance in Woody Guthrie and the Ghost of Tom Joad Today
03:45 Chose the subject because he’s obsessed with the Depression era
04:45 Started seeing connections between Woody Guthrie and John Steinbeck
07:00 Was it difficult to get the rights for the music/story?
09:00 Creating protest songs like This Land Is Your Land
10:15 Discussing the Ghost of Tom Joad with Tom Morello
12:00 Tom Joad was an inspiration for Springsteen
13:00 Woody has always remained relevant. Songs have been covered
14:15 Tom Joad was meant to be political in Grapes of Wrath
16:00 Seeing migrant work camps deeply affected Woody Guthrie
17:45 Majority of agricultural workers became Mexicans & Philipinos
19:00 Steinbeck was denounced as a communist
19:45 “This land is your land” could be the national anthem
21:00 Do we need times of great despair to produce great art?
23:15 There have been iterations of protest music over the decades
24:15 Jesse Wells has found modern success with protest music
24:45 Bruce Springsteen & Tom Morello have produced new protest music
26:00 Groups like The Clash and Blondie were very political
26:45 Springsteen started as apolitical, then evolved to become political
28:30 Springsteen now gives angry speeches during his concerts
30:30 Can a fictional account land harder than a true story?
33:00 Is Guthrie to Dylan to Springsteen the lineage of protest music?
34:00 Guthrie was Bob Dylan’s mentor
35:30 Would Grapes of Wrath be a best seller if it came out today?
36:15 Film is available at PBS and the PBS app
36:30 What would Tom Joad feel if he was in modern America?
37:15 The fall of unions would shock Guthrie and Joad
38:15 Trump’s corruption so far exceeds anything done by Nixon
40:00 Nixon would be considered a “lefty” by modern standards
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